Talk:Watchmen

Title
What if we rename this to CPU Gatekeepers? Then move the Arbitarch stuff to a side-note on the page and put back the Gatekeepers summary from Other Enablers? Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 04:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Just Gatekeepers will be better, not everyone is a CPU. Other than that I agree. - klop (talk) 04:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Fair point, though Gatekeepers sounds like more of a disambiguation page since other groups have been gatekeepers before. I guess it could work as a temp title until more info comes to light. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 04:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * How about "The Watchmen". A reference to the classic comic book. Plus I want to call myself Rorschach (since he writes a diary and is almost like a chronicler of events). As of now 4 members are publically known - Me, MKR, Aqua and anameisaname from kiwi farms. - klop (talk) 03:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Okay to start sections on Rorschach and anameisaname? Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 07:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Conflicts on Origins section
In the Origins section, someone asked a Watchman about the origins of the group, and the Watchman responded by quoting a section from the Guard Dogs article which stated that the Guard Dogs elected people to supervise Chris at further conventions.

However, the editor who put that section in has since retracted it for lack of source and said he had probably misread the Kiwi Farms thread. Marvin, one of the Guard Dogs, also stated that Chris was on his own and had no one babysitting him. File:Marvin on conventions claim.png.

So I'm deleting the Origins section in light of the conflict. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 03:24, 9 September 2020 (UTC)


 * So I talked to Naught about the conflict and got some clarifying statements saying that Owls, the original leader of the Watchmen, lied about some things. Will restore the Origins section and incorporate the new statements in. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 04:27, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing?
I noticed that the ongoing template was removed. Are they no longer gatekeeping Chris, or was it just removed because they're generally not publicly active? Lez (talk) 08:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Figured it could be removed since there hasn't been news lately and the page itself isn't frequently updated anymore. Think we should put it back? Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 16:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it should regain the ongoing template because while they aren't regularly active, they are still interacting with Chris. The removal of the template suggests that they aren't gatekeepers anymore, which isn't the case as far as I know. I was also thinking about adding a section about how a watchman posted one user's info and links to several of their social media accounts on the CWCki Discord (effectively doxxing that user), which resulted in that watchman (maybe two of them) being banned. It's not closely related to Chris but it would do a good job of showing how they operate. Abaddon (talk) 06:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with Abaddon. They're definitely still interacting with Chris in private, so it should be put back. And adding some of that information regarding how they operate would also be helpful for the article. Lez (talk) 22:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Alright, readded the template. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 22:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * This is somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand, but can anyone ask if they can get Chris to do more Q&As? It's been nearly half a year since the last one. KingClark (talk) 18:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I unfortunately haven't received any new answers since Discord Q&A 11 (I run the CWC Questions server and the depository), although I am told that Chris does get regular reminders about the Q&A. I hate to say it, but it's really just a waiting game at this point to see if he'll ever get around to it. --Anaxis (talk) 01:24, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Should Klop and Anaxis be put under the known members list?
It's blatantly obvious now that the two of them were way more involved with the Watchmen and Chris than they ever publicly let on. So should there be sections for them here? Lez (talk) 05:16, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. I am curious why they are not here already to be honest. Not including them begins to give an appearance of bias. They are not the only individuals who were involved in these Discords who haven't been named, either. But the information available is still coming out on that and everything is kind of in a state of flux right now, so one thing at a time I guess. SpookyBones (talk) 06:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Every known member of the Watchmen should be in the article, so yes. Shockingly ironic that a mod of the discord server in which trying to contact Chris is a bannable offense would be in contact with Chris. When did this info surface? Abaddon (talk) 06:45, 10 Sep 2021 (UTC)
 * Quite recently, as part of a deep dive into the CWCKi server leaks and into Sean's antics generally. Anaxis and Klop are collateral damage, really, but nonetheless information about their role came out and will probably continue to come out. SpookyBones (talk) 07:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I just found User:Anaxis doing essentially what amounts to wiki-socking with the Lainchu account (a lot of that going around, eh?), lmao. There's a lot of serious nonsense going on here and I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface by looking into shit casually. You guys need to clean house in a big way. SpookyBones (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Sean Walker
Sean has sections on two separate pages on this wiki - one here, one on the Bella page - which are almost completely identical. This makes things confusing in a bunch of ways (sections may not be completely in sync with each other and have different information, different redirects for his name go to different pages, etc). It's also just very clumsy and awkward.

I see three possible options here:

1. A new, separate page should be made for Sean, which will be linked on both the Watchmen and Bella articles, with a brief summary of how he was relevant to the corresponding subjects below.

2. Remove Sean from the Watchmen article and put everything into the Bella article, or vice versa.

3. Do nothing, and maintain the status quo.

Thoughts? --4CentUser (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The first option sounds pretty good to me. There should be enough material for Sean's own article at this point. Lez (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


 * That was where I was leaning towards too. Seeing as how PsychoNerd is already making the page for Sean, I'm gonna remove the templates from this and the bella article now that it's concluded. --4CentUser (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Minor members
I don't really see what the point of keeping around the sections for minor members like Kyle and Owls is. They were never really relevant in the first place, and now that the Watchmen have disbanded, chances are we'll never hear from them again. I propose we either remove them from the page or split them into a different section called 'minor members' so they don't take attention away from the real important players like Sean and Bismuth. --4CentUser (talk) 17:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I asked one of my sources about this. The response was, "minor members? LOL. Owls started the shit and Kyle is besties with MKR and Naught." So, maybe the words you're looking for are "members not involved in any of the big scandals", so I guess in that sense they're minor, but not really. People who were involved with these groups really need to be more extensively documented, not less. Ignoring and/or covering for up their bullshit and antics has already caused enough problems. The "Knights" don't even have a page on here yet ffs. SpookyBones (talk) 05:09, 23 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I revised my comment above somewhat as it was a bit over the top, sorry. I'm adding some content on some of these so-called "minor members" and on the Watchmen/Knights schism as well as other individuals who were present in the Discord logs and the general controversies surrounding the Watchmen. The Watchmen generally are severely underdocumented on this Wiki relative to their involvement with the several Chris-related scandals. It is hard not to ponder whether this is related to the fact that several of their members, ex-members, and associates are prominent on this site. It's astounding to me that these individuals haven't contributed more here given the importance of this topic. This is an extremely bad look for the credibility of this site and anything on it.


 * Also, "Naught" I think is the name he is best known by but "Bismuth" was more commonly used in relation to his interactions with Chris. This has the potential to cause confusion. I'd like to refer to him as "Naught" generally with "Bismuth" parenthetically, but wondered other people's thoughts.


 * There is quite a bit more to add, both stuff I have in my notes and/or on Kiwi and stuff that still needs researching or might be better added by others. Regrettably I don't (yet) have real names to put to Kyle, Anaxis, etc. but this stuff has a way of eventually getting revealed.


 * Lastly, there is one "x" in "dox" and I will die on this hill.


 * SpookyBones (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
 * My rationale for removing the minor members was that those sections were extremely short - sometimes to the extent that they messed up the page layout - and remained that way for months without any new stuff being added. I (apparently wrongly) assumed that meant that there wasn't any more relevant information about them to add, and so proposed removing them from prominence if no one had anything more to add on the subject.
 * But if you have new information to add, feel free to expand those sections and move them up the ladder of importance. I've always thought this site didn't really provide a full picture of what exactly happened with the Watchmen and Praetor anyway. --4CentUser (talk) 19:01, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Kyle suicide baiting
User:Hurtful Truth Level redacted this:
 * Kyle apparently boasted of working at a suicide hotline and inducing callers to go through with taking their own lives, something which was revealed in Discord leaks, both audio and text.

Which isn't unreasonable, it's a pretty serious accusation and what I wrote doesn't provide direct connection with Chris per se. The reference I cite shows him, MKR, and Naught discussing this suicide-baiting in what I think is the Watchmen Discord. Not all the context is there (unless HTL wants to provide it) but I doubt Chris was present for that conversation, sounds more like it was from the channels where they socialized among themselves without Chris. There is also an accusation in that thread that Sean, Naught and MKR were working together to cause Chris's suicide but I don't trust the source. So direct connection to Chris? Only in the sense that this shows what kind of person we're talking about who was involved with Chris. Rephrasing the submission so it makes clear that we're not saying Kyle was involved with Sean and ILJ (only that they shared some similar disturbing interests) in response to HTL's other edit makes sense too. But I think that just on the basis of knowing who we're dealing with it's worth documenting. I am not sure of the appropriate Wiki etiquette tbh so will leave for input from others? SpookyBones (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Generally, we try to avoid including excessive information about a subject's life unrelated to Chris, but here, I don't see much of a problem. It's not directly related to his interactions with Chris, but neither is the passing mention of Bella being "foot fungus-ridden" on her page. It provides context, and it's informative on what kind of a person Kyle is, so I'd agree that it should stay. --4CentUser (talk) 19:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it can give a misleading picture on his character and role with Chris. Because there's very little about him, so to have the suicide bait thing be the key thing on him, even though it doesn't relate to his dealings with Chris, seems like an issue. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is a "misleading" portrait of Kyle, a person who you should clarify that you have had personal contact with, by the way, then you should share the logs which you have admitted are in your possession if they provide mitigating context to the leak that is on lolcow.org. That you haven't done this suggests strongly that they don't, and thus this begins to look like another instance of people covering for friends. Not, as they say, a good look. The suicide-baiting thing is absolutely key to understanding his role in this stuff because it tells us a bit about who we are dealing with, both in Kyle's specific case and the general caliber of the people who were interacting with Chris in this way (after all, and again going on the limited leaks we have, MKR and Naught, if not others on the server, seemed to find this all very funny.) Taking it down would not only deprive the Wiki of this information but would further undermine it's credibility in general. SpookyBones (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

note: I suck at editing im not trying to fuck things up, but this is so stupid. Kyle was suicidal and he said the worker wanted to kill themselves you absolute fucken speds.

Merging major and minor
I think the major and minor classifications are kind of an issue in that whether a person is considered major or minor is speculation based on amount of public info. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)


 * When you're right, you're right. I'm not fond of the division either and you make a valid point that (most of us at least) are working with incomplete information. For all we know there was much more going on that hasn't leaked yet. There probably is. Don't worry. Everything comes out in the end. Someone will get pissed off or clout hungry enough to leak stuff eventually. But for now (a) your suggestion here is sensible and (b) it might be sensible to make some sort of general statement that not all the facts here are public. SpookyBones (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Toxic Trio
In MKR DMs Chris said that MKR, Naught and Kyle were a "toxic trio" and that he wouldn't be returning to their Discord group. How should this be included in the article? Should a section be made for the term or should it just be mentioned in The Place, Bismuth, MKR, and Kyle sections? Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 10:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Splitting up article
In addition to the proposal in Template talk:WatchmenSaga to split the Watchmen Saga, should we split up the Watchmen article itself? It could be split into The Place and The Knights of CWC. I think this would better reflect differences between the groups (The Place being prone to infighting and The Knights being less aggressive towards other Chris orbiters). Watchmen could possibly be revised (retaining The Players and Discord sections) or redirected to The Place (since the "Watchmen" name was created to describe people in The Place. Thoughts? Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 22:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I like that plan, I'd say we treat the Watchmen the same way we treat the Miscreants, where we acknowledge they're an important group, but don't give them an article of their own. As for what to do with the "members" section, I propose repurposing the Other enablers page, and give it the same format as the Trolls page, where we give the Watchmen a section, the same way the Miscreants are a section on the trolls page. Psycho (talk) 22:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * There was an old article for The Miscreants but it was eventually redirected to the Trolls page since it didn't have much info on it. Hurtful Truth Level (talk) 00:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I kind of agree
Maybe we should just reserve all the discord server info for its own special article - Anemichu (talk) 23:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)