User talk:Borednewb

Unified theory of Chris

Fistly, I must say I immensely enjoyed your analyses of Chris - thank you for posting them, they've given me a lot more to think about in my own analysis of him.

However, I'm a bit wary of your description of him as a "socially inept wanna-be-manipulative sociopath autistic".

I am admittedly no expert, but from what I understand:

• lack of empathy has been (not intrinsically) linked to Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). (There is some debate about that, though - I just found an article written by a person with Asperger's about the "myth" of lack of empathy in autistics; wherein the author proposes there is not a general lack of empathy, but rather an inability to react appropriately, due to the inability to correctly interpret and react to social cues.)

• Manipulative behaviour has also been noted in ASD.

• Even by your own definition, autistic = socially inept

Now, I'm not saying Chris is allowed to use this as justification for his, admittedly, more self-serving behaviours, and I do realise that he's nearly thirty years old and should take more responsibility for his actions (and should have "memorised" more socially acceptable responses by now), but I think all these labels of him as "sociopathic" and "narcissistic" (as I've seen elsewhere on the site), are character flaws that are more in-tie with his autism than anything else and can be rather...harsh, taken out of context.

I also feel he is largely a victim of circumstance - from his parents refusing to "give him over" to the mental health care he needed (needs?) back in 4th grade, to his current lack of normal social interaction, he's never learnt how to respond appropriately by observing other people or by being taught and assisted by a professional (who would know how to work with someone with ASD). I believe his parents' actions and misconceptions (i.e. about mental health care) are largely the cause for Chris's current level of ineptitude. I also somehow doubt the actions of all the trolls are improving his construct for what "normal" social interaction is, but that's another matter.

All in all, I don't believe Chris is exempt from the expectation to behave more appropriately socially merely because he is autistic, but I think the impairments he has due to his autism should be given at least some further consideration.

Not making sense, as usual, I guess (sorry), Sussuro 08:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

My thoughts

No, I think you're making a fair bit of sense actually, and I enjoyed reading it. I do however disagree that the trolling doesn't help Chris; basically any time Chris puts his foot on anything (Youtube, Flipnote Hatena, anything), he is immediately beset by trolls. They make his existence painful for him to endure, because they know exactly what to do to press his buttons. The trolls force Chris into the real world, which he is doing, which is:

a) A good thing for Chris, ultimately, since people learn only from mistakes and he can't make them if he's a shut-in. b) A bad thing for the citizens of Charlottesville, since Chris is a cancer that harasses women and aggravates men.

I am of the opinion that keeping Chris flailing around on the internet is a community service. It's basically a prison; he can't hurt anyone there, and the trolls he scream at find his antics only amusing, rather than hurtful. I actually do believe Chris causes a great deal of negativity in his community; his actions at the recent Friday After Five show this (especially with the throwing rocks around). He is mentally ill. He should be removed from his community and be placed into the care of the state. When his parents die, unless there is a massive sea-change in the way he thinks and acts (unlikely), this will almost certainly happen.

Indirectly the trolling helps Chris, but unless they can keep him focused on the Internet, it harms the broader community. I don't want another Wallflower/Megan, although I accept that almost nothing anyone can do can stop it, only minimise the chance of it happening. Considering we've only had one Wallflower to our knowledge since the trolls began trolling, I'd say they're doing a fairly good job so far, but recent events such as his drinking, bar hopping, concert attending (etc) mean that Chris will probably 'strike' again. --Ronichu 12:45, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

My Two Cents

Chris's autism makes it difficult for him to pick up on social cues. Chris's narcissism makes him think he's better than everybody else. But I think it's the combination of those two aspects that's responsible for his more insane or disturbing antics.

We've all been at points in our lives where we want something, but lack the ability to obtain it. The only way to get whatever it is is to learn how other people did it and follow their lead. A kid going to a new school will learn how to fit in by watching the way the other kids act. If you drag a socially awkward person out clubbing with you a few times, he'll watch other people and figure how they get hot girls to grind them. When we realize our current skills are inadequate, we figure out the proper behavior and imitate it.

Chris's autism makes it difficult for him to pick up on social cues, but I think his narcissism might prevent him from even trying. He goes out to places like Fridays after Five or whatever his preferred bar is, sees people acting and reacting in ways he doesn't quite understand, and says "Fuck it, my idea is better anyways because I'm a genius." Then begins attraction signs, the red string of love, a want woman bra, pelting people with fucking rocks or whatever. His autism makes it hard for him to understand how other people do it, and his egotism makes him convinced he doesn't need to.

I'm not saying Ronichu is wrong, because Ronichu and I love each other and one day we're gonna to run away together and live in a house by the sea, but getting Chris outside might not good for Chris at all. Chris was out and about for years before ED found out about him and he became shackled to the internet, and all that resulted in was huge loads of attraction signs and other equally unique ways of trying to get girls. Getting Chris off the internet doesn't "help" him, it just changes his location.--Beat 14:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

This feels like a psychology forum

Well, I don't expect Chris to change much anymore, mostly due to his own arrogance, as Beat said, and also because he's just a lost cause all round if you ask me; and I agree that I'd rather read about him making an ass of himself on the internet than him going outside to chase and/or throw rocks at helpless girls - but all I'm saying is that perhaps the trolling could on some level be normalising more reprehensible behaviour for him - if he is even aware of enough to notice something other than that it briefly caused him some pain.

Although a lot of his behaviour is already rather reprehensible, maybe reinforcing that trolling is something people typically do can't particularly be considered "helping". I doubt he'll employ any behaviours he might've learnt from any of his trolls, as that would involve some initiative on his part and doesn't really result in some "reward" for him, and also because he evidently understands that trolling is "bad" (but only when it's against him, one could argue).

But yeah, letting Chris run around wild in the streets of Charlottesville at this point could probably scar several innocent bystanders for life, so him staying locked in his filthy lair is probably the best outcome until he is taken away and institutionalised - especially since alcohol is now a factor. (I hadn't considered that point before, to be honest)

My posts are just my opinion, however, I haven't been following Chris for all that long and I'm only a second year Psych student, so I don't really know what the fuck I'm talking about anyways...sorry.

Also, as long as the trolls don't go around forcing shitloads of nudes from him to plaster the CWCki with, I remain neutral as to whether they continue to troll him...I still mostly enjoy his responses to being trolled, at any rate. Sussuro 17:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Quick response while I'm supposed to be working

I'll prefix this with the statement that I have no real psych qualifications, and most of my rantings are more about gut instinct and reasoning than any form of academically sound studies.

In general I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Sussuro, since it makes a lot of sense. But keep in mind that Chris' lack of empathy goes far deeper than merely being unable to read social cues. In one of his early videos when he was told he was responsible for someone's decision to commit suicide there was NO sign of remorse in any way, rather he just seemed impressed with his own power. Throughout all of Chris' social interactions he seems to be dominated by a means-end calculation, he doesn't view people as people in their own right, more like NPCs in a computer game.

Although food for thought that I've wanted to expand upon but have been unsure as to how: Look up Kohlberg's stages of moral development. As a psych student you're probably familiar with them, but for any others reading here is a quick overview. There are three stages of moral development. The first is held by children, wherein their entire moral decision making is "What is in it for me?", a combination of "if I do X action, will I benefit?" and "If I do X action, will I be punished?" The second is a more developed view where moral stances are held because they have been taught, you have grown up with those moral ideas and hold on to them as 'right'. The final stage is where the individual uses their own logic and reasoning to determine what they believe is a morally right action.

Read through that, and I'm very certain most people will agree Chris falls firmly into stage 1. Chris has the morality of a child, and shows no sign of developing that. Make of it what you will, I'm uncertain where/if it can be used on the cwcki. -- Borednewb 04:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with feeling like a psych forum

In fact, trying to decipher the complex web of fail that is Chris is much more satisfying than just calling him a homo furfag retard.

That said, I really like your thesis, which points towards a trend that we've suspected all along: That autism alone is insufficient in explaining his constant failures, and that there is one or more intervening factor, namely his shitty parenting, narcissism, sociopathy, delusion...

Your arguments explain very nicely how Chris believes something becomes true just by saying it. It's analogous to your Sonic example: If there is a single factor (The Sonic show is for children/Chris stands for TRUTH and HONESTY), then it defines the entire surrounding context (everything involving Sonic is appropriate for children/anything said by Chris must be true) regardless of contravening factors.

I've offered an additional angle on my userpage. I can reproduce it here if you don't feel like going to my page, but essentially it (half-jokingly) hypothesizes that Chris may additionally suffer from schizophrenia, or even dissociative identity disorder. The fact that he takes his dreams as prophecy only leads credence to the former.

Keep it up. It's something I'd like to see expanded. --SeventhBase 02:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so, I concluded my remarks on this in the Speculation by saying fuck you guys. I'd just like to take a moment to take a step back and introduce my comments here by saying fuck you guys. Chris isn't a sociopath--he's incredibly childish, socially isolated, desperate, totally ignorant of what other people want, and totally ignorant of the way autism affects his ability to give it to them. He just plain hasn't been in enough social situations to learn--or learn the necessity of--certain skills. All the elements of sociopathy could be applied to a generic child at some point or another and the essence of autism is difficulty with empathy. I totally understand how these separate conditions look similar because they are similar. But that's not how diagnosis works. For one thing, I'm convinced Chris is selectively mute hence the noviophobia and attraction signs, but it wouldn't be proper to diagnose that or to treat that or consider that separate from his--or anyone else's--autism. I mean, that's not quite a thing in and of itself, but sake of argument, etc. They're connected. One is epiphenomenal upon the other. He was even universally mute at one point. He's got issues with speech. He's got issues with empathy. Just because a guy's stumbling around and smells like liquor doesn't mean he is drunk. It means he's probably drunk. The deal with probability is that the more information you get, the less relevant it is. If you just bump into him on the street like, you should probably assume the more likely. But if you're an ER technician or something and it's been a couple hours and he's lost the ability to perceive the left side of things, you might want to adjust your theory. The guy could've just had a couple drinks and a massive stroke. You've got to look at the surrounding issues.

For one thing, Chris's invasive and violative behavior with women is based on his bizarre fucking ideas about what dating is. He invents retarded rules about how people should behave and then strictly follows them. He's not amoral the way a sociopath is. He's hypermoral. Helps... I think I already mentioned this in the Speculation, but it helps that his parents are morons. Like, his mom thought Michael Snyder was out of line for not offering her a chair when she was trespassing.

I'm repeating myself. I'm not sure there's any more I can say and I don't know if I'm changing any minds here, so, this being the Internet, I'm just going to declare victory and not comment anymore. —Thepicklesuitintheman 17:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, I wanted to comment on the Monty Python thing. If what you're saying is true (and it probably is), then Chris would, for example, not appreciate the key points of what makes the "My Hovercraft is Filled with Eels" sketch so iconic: Its use of a "lost in translation"/"culture shock" trope, expressing sexually-charged lines in a completely oblivious deadpan, and just a little bit of xenophobia. Instead, Chris just hears that one oh-so-random line done in a funny accent thinks it's a fucking riot. I would also venture to guess he's never seen Life of Brian, either, as that movie is much less dependent on non-sequiter as comedic device. --SeventhBase 03:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

IRT your remarks on my page, which I have reproduced here for your convenience:

You may have a point on the Simonla issue. If we're to take the simplest explanation (Chris is a selfish liar), it's probably another spur-of-the moment excuse to Evan, worded poorly because he assumes the latter is as childish/retarded as he is and will buy the argument. On the other hand, Chris has demonstrated repeated behavior showing that he believes his fantasy world is real. Also unaddressed is how Chris is not quite aware that he is the mouthpiece for his creations. By saying "Sonichu and Rosechu can go justify themselves", Chris demonstrates that he thinks that without the intervening factor of himself, his creations will go tell off Clyde and Miyamoto-sama.

This goes beyond pure escapism, where CWCville is a place where he is in control of everything; this goes to show you that he feels CWCville and its related denizens are not only completely autonomous and able to interact with the outside world, but subject to the alterations and damages of others. Which is why feels he must "correct" the others' actions that threaten his idyllic paradise. It's not simply a matter of "fuck you trolls, I'll just act as if did nothing to CWCville," he has to rectify these slanderous mockeries in his pages, and additionally assure his readers (read: himself) that no major damage was done.

The other point of "other people as real as cartoons" brings us right back to his sociopathy. Other people are merely as cartoon characters to be manipulated in the grand narrative of Chris's life. As Great Director Chandler, he believes other people will bend to his desires solely due to that "fact". He not only wants CWCville under his control, but also the real world. This squares nicely with his fear of losing control.

One more revealing thing: Chris confessed in the comic pages that in high school, he would read R.L. Stine novels and imagine Sonic characters to be in their place. (This was probably well before Sonic degenerated into a recolor shitfest.) This shows that he can't even relate to fantasy humans on the account of being human (and not his own creation), and must imagine them as cartoon furries. (This might also explain why in the Giant Penis Comic, he and Ivy fucking in their Chu forms... as well why he imagined himself in his Chu form in his own sexual fantasies with some other woman he was cybering that I can't name at the moment.) Coupled with his (possibly feigned possibly genuine) concern for the welfare of Asperchu ("He won't like having da Assburgers!) and Wild ("He'll be left all by his lonsome without Simonla!"), this shows that Chris is capable of empathy - for anthropomorphic cartoon characters, not humans. Or then again, maybe not: He might just be confusing his own selfish desires for concern for these furry creatures, like he does with real people all the time. That might explain the Simonla/Wild thing, which amounts to a control issue, but not the Asperchu/Mitch thing.

Again, nothing really that new, just more evidence for your thesis. --SeventhBase 16:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Have you considered this angle?

I've tried to distill some of Chris's idiosyncracies into one statement:

Chris believes that words hold more power than actions or facts.

To normal people, it's the precise opposite; Words are absolutely empty unless backed by evidence or accompanying action. However, for Chris, he only needs to say something and it'll be taken as truth, regardless of anything to the contrary. This is how he is constantly able to be a hypocrite and yet remain oblivious. The Asperpedia saga being played out in the comics illustrates this. A normal person would be bewildered that the many apologetic words to Alec and Co. are paired with the depiction of their mutilation. Not so Chris: he thinks that making those words of apology is sufficient for everyone to understand that he has genuinely apologized, which means they won't notice him indulging his sick fantasies of executing the Asperpedia Four. While the rest of the world sees through this as insincere (with quite a bit of cognitive dissonance), he probably TRULY and HONESTLY believes he was being sincere.

It is also why he is able to lie with impunity: by making a statement, it is automatically true, regardless of the facts it is based on. Possibly to him, they're not lies, but simply assertions of the truth in his (constantly changing to fit his wants) world.

The icing on the cake is the Chris Categorical Imperative that you stated. It is not simply anyone's words that hold power over their actions and the facts, but his words alone. However, consistent with fears of losing control, Chris may believe that when some got-dang dirty troll makes a slanderous mockery of him, he fears that the troll's words will hold power over him and become truth, and must respond to validate his own truth, usually in the form of tard rage.

The "distilled statement" is not exactly a fully-developed gloss, but if this is already in your thesis, please point it out. --SeventhBase 07:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You're definately on the money with the statement about the power Chris puts into words. I honestly believe that Chris does not differentiate between words and reality. I can stand up in a crowded area and proclaim myself gay, without actually worrying about how that may influence my sexuality because I know there is a difference between a statement and fact. Chris, however, can only bring himself to state that he is gay if he is surrounded by what he believes count as proof of heterosexuality. This has two possible implications.

1. Chris is incredibly self conscious about what people think about him. While it COULD be right (he often seems to justify himself, look up his videos where he justifies his low fitness in "Sonichu's Edge", or the one where he justifies shitting himself), I do not believe this is the case. Chris just does too much random shit without seeming to care how other people view it. 2. Chris believes that a statement makes something true. By stating that he is gay, unless he somehow undermines it he actually BECOMES Gay. To use a childish metaphor, it is as if in Chris' mind every statement is backed up by a parent saying something is true "because I say so". Why do we cross the road when the light is green? Because I say so. Why am I straight? Because I say so.

In general, you seem to be fairly on the money. Chris MUST refute the slanderous statements trolls make about him, otherwise in his childish viewpoint they become fact. Of course, he seems to have abandoned this perspective in recent times, leaving the trolls to say what they will. It seems that Chris has an inherent respect and desire for an authority over him to tell him what to do. -- Borednewb 11:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

"It seems that Chris has an inherent respect and desire for an authority over him to tell him what to do." Wow, that adds a whole 'nother dimension to the Unified Theory! It not only explains his relationship with his parents, but also with trolls and so-called sweethearts. However, that doesn't quite square with two things:

1. His fear of loss of control, and
2. his absolute contempt for authority just about everywhere else! (c.f. Jerkops, Manajerks, MLW...)

Now, maybe the missing link is that Chris desires only authority that he doesn't find offensive. When BlueSpike was able to con Chris into doing all sorts of unspeakable acts, it was because Chris was able to accept "her" authority in order to further his goal of china. But when a JERK was just doing his job (and thereby hindering Chris's goal), that was a ticket to the bottom of the Scale of Respect. What do you think? --SeventhBase 10:16, 16 August 2010 (PDT)

This... Explains a lot, actually.

Change "authority that he doesn't find offensive" with "authority that tells him what he wants to hear" and you've got something. Keep in mind, Chris expects things to fall into his lap (his winning a contest of life or something) so when an authority tells him what he wants to hear ("Do X and you'll get to have sex with me and thus prove your adulthood") it fits his worldview, so he pays attention to it. However if an authority tells him something that breaches his worldview it is as if they have breached his trust. He trusts authorities to give him what he wants, if they do otherwise then in his mind they must not be genuine authorities, which means they must be the corrupt and therefore must be bad guys. I'd love to sit down and write more on this idea, but a recent job situation means I don't have much spare time at the moment. -- Borednewb 02:17, 17 August 2010 (PDT)